Destiny's children: India and Pak united in divide

LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR: Panelists on State of the Nation debate and discuss India and Pak's shared past and future.

                    

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Keywords: Survey, Independence Day

India and Pakistan are 60 years young, celebrating a freedom that came at the bitter cost of Partition.

Now as the two nations make another tryst with destiny and stand at the crossroads of key social, economic, cultural and political changes, it’s perhaps time apt enough to stand back, retrospect and do some crystal ball gazing.

A first-of-its-kind opinion poll conducted by CNN-IBN in association with The Indian Express and The Dawn, sought to do just that – gauge the popular sentiment and mood in both nations.

The world-exclusive survey was conducted jointly and simultaneously in India and Pakistan by research group Centre for Study of Developing Societies (CSDS) and A C Neilson and looked closely at the two countries’ shared past, present and a possible future.

The results of the survey were discussed and debated at length in a CNN-IBN special show State of the Nation – People to People, conducted by CNN-IBN Editor-in-Chief Rajdeep Sardesai at the historic Humayun’s Tomb in Delhi.

To discuss the findings of the poll, analyse the past, scan the present and predict a future was an eminent panel comprising celebrities, mediamen, scholars and politicians from either side of Line of Control.

They were (in order of introduction): Political scientist with CSDS, Prof Yogendra Yadav; India’s Union Railway Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav; Member of Pakistan People’s Party and journalist Sherry Rahman; Editor-in-Chief Indian Express Shekhar Gupta; actors Naseeruddin Shah and Aamir Khan and Pakistani cricket legend Imran Khan.

The Indo-Pak poll was conducted with the objective of understanding the dynamics within and between the two nations. Prof Yogendra Yadav said the fact that for the first time, a poll was conducted simultaneously in the two countries made the exercise unique. He also pointed out that it was the first survey of its kind to pose sensitive questions – about pertinent issues like Kashmir and Partition - in both India and Pakistan.

“But because it’s the first time, we have limited the ambition of the poll, taking into view only top 10 cities in India and Pakistan. So the poll only reflects the mindset of urban India and Pakistan. We conducted 1,000-plus interviews in Pakistan and 2,000-plus interviews in India,” Yadav explained.

United in divide or divided in unity?

The survey raised some sensitive questions about the identity of India and Pakistan as individual nations as also the utopian (or as some may say the disastrous) possibility of the two coutries coming together again. Here are the results:

Was Partition unavoidable? While in India, 22 per cent of those surveyed said Partition was unavoidable, in Pakistan, a sizeable 52 per cent agreed with it. While a majority of Indians (62 per cent) were of the rather optimistic view that Partition was avoidable, only a meager 32 per cent in Pakistan were as optimistic.

Do you support unification of India and Pakistan? This was the more controversial of all questions and saw 20 per cent Indians supporting unification. In Pakistan, the mood was less positive with only nine per cent supporting the idea. Interestingly, the percentage of people disagreeing with the idea was almost equal in both countries with 39 per cent Indians and 24 per cent Pakistanis against the idea. On the other hand, a majority of Indians (41 per cent) and Pakistanis (57 per cent) unilaterally supported the idea of friendship. Therefore, the predominant view was: Forget unification, let’s just be friends.

“People on both sides live by their official ideologies, but the most important thing is that they have begun accepting the reality of two different nations. From my experience, saying that we would unite is not a friendly gesture towards Pakistan,” Yadav said.

So do Indians romanticise Pakistan in general and Partition in particular? Actor Naseeruddin Shah said while it was true that Indians do tend to romanticise history more than Pakistan, the enormity of the tragedy could not be neglected either. Shah said he was a victim of Partition himself and deeply regretted it. “The distinctions between Hindi and Urdu, Hindus and Muslims and the awareness of the differences in ones’ religion cannot be neglected,” he pointed out.

Cricketer Imran Khan seemed to prove correct Yogendra Yadav’s observations and said there was no point looking back. “Both nations have accepted what happened. What’s more important now is to figure out how we live in future. DO we live as civilised neighbours or like we have lived in last 60 years,” he said, adding, “You can’t change your neighbours.”

His country cousin, PPP leader and journalist Sherry Rahman seemed miffed with the manner in which a “sensitive issue” like Partition was being discussed. She made her annoyance clear when Rajdeep asked her if Pak had completely reconciled to the idea of Partition. “One has to be sensitive while talking about Pakistan because there you are challenging the gentic birth of Pakistan. I agree with what Imran said. You can’t be prisoners of history. While you can learn from history, you can’t change your geography,” she said.

Friendship please! Can India and Pak do it?

So, just where does the eternal optimist go in the age of Indo-Pak bonhomie? Is there space for ideologues who light candles on August 14, hoping that one day the two countries shall stand united?

While many say such people live in a romantic world, other criticise and dismiss it as a “north Indian phenomenon”. Interestingly, Rajdeep also pointed out that youth in south India hardly have time for such deliberations and introspections.

Shekhar Gupta said the emotion of being friends was not defined regionally. “There are no boundaries for friendship. It cuts across India. A vast majority of Indians accept the existence of Pakistan and want to be friends with it,” he said,

Gupta said the debate on whether or not there could be any reconciliation was a nonsensical one. He said the debate had been raging, inconclusively, for the past 50 years.

Another interesting and sensitive point in the debate was the question of the identity of the Indian Muslim. Actor Aamir Khan was asked if he felt conscious of his status as an Indian Muslim and if it made a difference to him. “I was never aware of it till late 80s with the rise of the Right Wing. Till then, I, as an Indian Muslim, lived very comfortably. I was not made to feel aware of my religion till then,” he said, pointing out that early 90s was the time when most Indians were made conscious of their religion.

However, the actor was quick to point out that the country had moved ahead and the while Partition was unfortunate, it was time to look at future. The actor’s sentiments were echoed (with a loud cry of ‘yes’) by the young audience as well.

Railway Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav had visited Pakistan a few years ago and was instantly lapped up by the public there. He received roaring welcomes wherever he went and managed to cut ice with the political class as well.

Among the panelists too, he seemed to be the most optimistic as regards the unification. “Why not? When East Germany and West Germany could bring down the Wall and unite, why can’t India and Pakistan?” he asked, much to the amusement of panelists and the audience.

He went on to argue his point, ”Musharraf told me that the maximum people in Lahore comprised of Bihari Muslims. He spoke of man-to-man contact, which was implemented,” he said.

Imran Khan vehemently agreed with the question and said the nations could be great friends “more now than ever before in history.”

“When India beat Pakistan in a Test series few years ago in Pakistan, I could not believe the scenes I saw. There were Indian flags flying high all over the ground with even Pakistanis cheering for them. It was reflective in the way Indian visitors were treated across Pakistan,” he pointed out, amid a roaring applause from the audience.

Cricket, music, cinema: The new glues

The SOTN survey also posed key questions and observed trends pertaining to culture and cultural exchanges between the two countries. Films, music and sports were the predominant themes of the survey, the results of which indicated interesting trends.

Music

While 13 per cent Indians surveyed admitted to watching Pak TV channels , 22 per cent said they listened to music from across the border.

In Pakistan, the numbers were more even more clinching with 52 per cent of those surveyed admitting to watch Hindi films, while 48 per cent said they listened to Indian music.

The results made it seem that Indian satellite TV, music and songs are the biggest exports to Pakistan. Yadav pointed out that it was not limited to music or showbiz. “Pakistani media covers more about India than Indian media does about Pakistan. An average Pakistani intellectual knows much more about India than an average Indian knows about Pakistan,” he said.

Sherry Rahman didn’t seem to agree with the statement that Indian culture was sweeping Pakistan and said it was, in fact, a global phenomenon. “Why Bollywood films do well in Pak has got t o do with the quality of films. They will do better if we have m ore icons like the gentlemen here (Naseer and Aamir),” she pointed out.

Rahman also said Pakistan should try and ease Indian films’ entry into that country provided they do not propagate violence and hatred. “We do not want to revisit Partition in any form,” she point out.

So has the era where a Veer Zaara would be more acceptable that say, a Gadar? Naseer said while those bent on making movies like Gadar would continue to do so. “And really, I don’t see any terrible damage done by the movie. After World War II, many Italian movies depicting Germans as horrible people were made. That didn’t make much difference in the relation between the two countries,” he said.

Naseer’s emotions found an echo of approval in Aamir who said he would be willing to act in a film like Veer Zaara. Naseer, who recently acted in a Pakistani film, said it was a great experience, worth a repeat. “Though it was the first time I visited Pakistan, it was great. It’s a brave film too,” he said.

However, amid the bonhomie, there’s also a feeling that this sense of celebration is largely one-sided. While India goes out of its way to make Pakistani artistes feel welcome, similar emotion does not quite prevail across the border.

Shekhar Gupta said it would not be appropriate to look at everything in a bilateral sense. “In case of Hollywood, must America and Mexico demand and expect bilateralism of each other? One urban centre becomes the magnet of creative community. We have to see it like that. When everything is being done in one language, one idiom and by similar people, there’s no need for two centres,” he said.

Cricket

Who are Pakistan’s favourite Indian cricketers? In the third position was skipper Rahul Dravid with 11 per cent votes, Sourav Ganguly was at no. 2 with 12 per cent votes and Sachin Tendulkar swept the poll with a 49 per cent vote share.

Who are India’s favourite Pakistani cricketers? Shahid Afridi occupied the third slot with 16 per cent votes, Shoaib Akhtar and Wasim Akram were joint firsts with 18 per cent votes each.

So does cricket really break down boundaries or is it a romantic notion? Imran Khan said cricket has created a better understanding between the two countries. “It’s a game loved across sub-continent and it’s because of the game that you start looking at each other as normal human beings,” he said. Interestingly, it’s the same Imran who had once famously remarked that cricket was war without weapons. Today, he said it was all tension on the field.

Lalu, also the president of Bihar Cricket Association, had strong opinions on the issue. Considering that cricket it the first casualty whenever there’s a frigidity between India and Pakistan, Lalu said it should not happen. “Whoever lets cricket suffer because of political ties is an enemy of the country. It’s a great start to cricketing ties and should continue,” he said.

Shekhar Gupta said Indo-Pak bonhomie should not be “pushed or forced” and that both nations needed to go with the flow. “The compulsions of a global market place is catching up with India and Pakistan and the legacy of the past is passé,” he said.

Cinema

Who is Pakistan’s favourite Indian film actor? Sharing the second position were Amitabh Bachchan and Salman Khan at 12 per cent each, and the first position was bagged by, predictably, Shah Rukh Khan at 38 per cent.

Who is Pak’s favourite Hindi film actress? At joint second position were Madhuri Dikshit and Rani Mukherji (12 per cent). Aishwarya Rai was the no. 1 with 28 per cent votes.

Aamir explained the phenomenon by saying that it was all about the quality of entertainment, and not so much about the country. Rajdeep pointed out how he had once seen a poster in a Lahore stadium declaring, “Madhuri de do, Kashmir le lo (Give us Madhuri, take Kashmir)”. The comment was received with a roaring laughter by the panelists and audience.

However, Rahman did not seem bemused. She opined that the boys discourse was dominating the discussion and how the survey looked at the Indo-Pak ties. “The rest of the world has moved o n. It speaks a new language of common markets, multi-polarity. Trade is a huge mover and we can work that out if states and people put their weight behind it,” she said.

Lalu Prasad agreed with the opinion. “First it was just Samjhauta Express, now it’s Thar Express too,” he said.

The next question asked on the show pertainedt o economic and political conditions: who feels satisfied with the present economic conditions? In India 71 per cent said yes they feel satisfied with the present economic conditions and in Pakistan 66 per cent of the people said that they are happy with the present economy.

When it comes to economic conditions, 64 per cent in India said yes they have improved and only 52 per cent people in Pakistan said they have improved. Optimistic about the future – 77 per cent from India said yes they are optimistic about the country’s future while 63 per cent of people from Pakistan said they are optimistic. Basic necessities available – 61 per cent in India said yes they are satisfied with the basic needs provided, but in Pakistan only 46 per cent had the similar response.

The next question asked in the survey: do you feel that you are politically empowered and enjoy equal rights? 75 per cent in India said yes they do enjoy equal rights but only 45 per cent in Pakistan said they are politically empowered.

On freedom of speech, 74 per cent in India said yes they enjoy freedom of speech and in Pakistan only 40 per cent people responded to the question. When asked whether you can change the government – 80 per cent of Indians said yes they can and only 41 per cent of Pakistanis said they can change the government.

Is democracy the critical difference at the moment? Majority in India feel they can change the government but not the Pakistanis.

Answering the question Yogendra said, “Yes, if I was in Pakistan I wouldn’t say I can change the government right now so in that sense yes it is a differentiator. It also differentiates in economic figures. This happens to be a moment when there is a general sense of low in Pakistan. It’s not necessarily a reflection on Pakistan’s economy. There is no differentiation in aspiration, while the reality may be different in Pakistan and India. The level of aspiration is the same in India and Pakistan.”

The young Indians and young Pakistanis both want democracy. Pakistan had 60 years of Independence but 30 years of army rule and 30 years of civilian rule.

“It's really troubling records. To be candid, the idea is not to sit there and gloat over what went wrong in your neighboring country but the idea is to say can good democracy make us co-exist better. That’s the key to the way forward. Pakistan will return to democracy. The aspiration equal everywhere perhaps more because obviously when you haven’t got something you wanted more,” Sherry said.

Sixty years ago British historians who wrote about partition said, “Wonder whether India would survive”. They believed that India would break up into several smaller states. Sixty years later in a sense at the moment India seems to have own the bet.

Discussing the fact Shekhar Gupta said, “It’s very easy to take a simplistic view of these things. Historians have wisdom about the past. You should not put too much stress on what they predict about the future. These are nations, which are going through intense process of nation building. May be Pakistanis are got caught in a peculiar situation in Bangladesh mainly because there was lack of democracy.”

“India’s democracy has opened up the rule of one party has gone away. Now there are many parties, the aspirations of many minorities, regions are now being fulfilled. Pakistan is as imperfect a dictatorship as India is an imperfect democracy. So in the name of democracy we don’t give our citizens quite all the rights we must give them similarly the Pakistanis even they have the worst kind of dictatorship don’t deny their citizens all the rights. So these are very complex situation, “ he added.

Democracy for one, democracy for all?

Is democracy most suitable form of government? In the survey when the question was asked to the people, 88 per cent of Indian said yes democracy is most suitable form of government while 82 per cent of Pakistanis said yes. So both the country wants democracy. All the young believe that the future will be better.

“We have to remember that these are the polls which were conducted in urban cities. While we have enjoyed 60 years of independence I think we still haven’t been able to root out poverty and hunger, which is quite a shame and that is something we should be working together. There are so many problems yet that both the country face, Aamir Khan said while talking about the democracy form of government in India and Pakistan.

Echoing the view Lalu Prasad said that the two countries should have democracy but there should be peace first. Till India and Pakistan restore peace both can’t unite.

“If it will be in my hand, I will open the border and two countries can be unite forever,” he said.

India, Pakistan: friends forever?

Can India and Pakistan be friends in the future? 51 per cent of Indians are blaming people in Pakistan for hostile relations and 66 per cent of Pakistanis are blaming India. Whenever anything goes wrong in the two countries they blame each other. Kashmir remains a problem.

“I have never met a single Pakistani from whom I have sensed any animosity. Though I have met people in London Pakistanis who congratulated me on being a Muslims and successful in India, which I thought was a strange kind of observation,” Naseeruddin Shah said.

“The business of opening border is very well to talk about but until we get rid of these kind of parochial attitude I don’t think we are going to make any headway in that directions. I don’t blame the people I blame the governments.”

While blaming the media for exaggerating things, Aamir Khan said, “Media does tend to overplay certain things which then gives a very different colour to all things.”

Defending the attack on media, Shekhar Gupta said, “Where does the media come from, If the government comes from within us the media is also comes from with us. Medial tells you what’s going on in the minds of the society.”

“Media do sensationalizes everything at various points of time. But look at the way Bombay cinema, which I think has its finger on the pulse of Indian society as much as Sensex has on the state of the economy. When there was lot of anger with Pakistan then Gaddar became a great hit, Roja became a great hit, anger subsided, Veer Zara become a great hit. So its not as if films are setting the agenda. Films are reflecting the mood of the day that’s what the media does, “ he said.

“But there were lot of films were made which were anti-Pakistan all of them flopped, “ Aamir Khan replied.

When asked to Indian people what’s the best way to have contacts with Pakistanis 90 per cent of people said ‘people to people’ contact. They want Indians and Pakistanis to meet each other on a regular basis.

Equally importantly 84 per cent of Pakistanis said they want greater to greater people contact. 86 of Indians said yes there should be greater bilateral trade and so do 86 per cent of Pakistanis felt the same way.

73 per cent of Indians say they want relaxation in visa restrictions but 84 per cent of Pakistanis said they want to come to Delhi. Talking about the ending nuclear arms race, both the centuries agreed and 75 per cent of both the courtiers said they want to end the nuclear arms race.

Indo-Pak relations will improve or remain the same in next few years. 87 per cent of Indians said they will improve and 82 per cent of Pakistanis also said they will improve in the years to come.

The icons of the two countries:

Founding Fathers

While in India, 85 per cent of those surveyed vouched for Mahatma Gandhi, in Pakistan he got a meagre 29 per cent response.

As for Mohammed Ali Jinnah, he got only 43 percent as response from Indians, however, he got a bulky 97 per cent favour from the Pakistanis.

Bollywood heroes

Dilip Kumar got a 69 percentile in India and got 65 per cent in Pakistan.

Shah Rukh Khan got a 64 per cent in India but a good response from the Pakistanis with a 69 percentage.

Popular singers

While Lata Mangeshkar got a 78 per cent in India she also got 70 per cent in Pakistan.

Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan got a 57 per cent in India and 77 per cent in Pakistan.

Popular Cricketers

Sachin Tendulkar got 75 per cent in India and 51 per cent in Pakistan.

Imran Khan got 56 per cent in India and he got 75 per cent in Pakistan.

So where popularity is concerned, do founding fathers get confined within the nation alone but the popularity of film stars crosses boundaries?

Yadav came up with a very interesting point in response to the question. He said that if a nation wants to anchor its future then it must not anchor it in the mid political 20th century history. “We must anchor it in today and in an arena outside politics,” he stressed.

The penal of experts were ultimately questioned as to who were their icons both in India and Pakistan.

Lalu said that he idolised both Mahatma Gandhi and Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan who shared a very good chemistry, and owing to which they were able to do contribute a lot to the nation.

Rahman was quick to respond by saying that Pakistanis Mohammed Ali Jinnah and Sheik Zulfikar Ali Bhutto were her icons.

In response to the question, Gupta said that Indians and Pakistanis couldn’t hate each other for what happened in the political scenario, but only have icons in the field of cricket or films. “Real life is run by real politics and it is one thing for Pakistanis not to love Gandhi on grounds that if what Gandhi was saying was right then why have a separate nation. Similarly for Indians, it is another thing to love Mohammed Ali Jinnah because if what he was saying was right then why should we have had the Partition,” he said.

Shah said that the person he had considered to be a hero right from his childhood was cricketer Haneef Mohammaed who was not only an efficient batsman but was also the only cricketer of the sub-continent when he was born.

“He reached world class levels and he could give the best, a run for their money,” said Shah.

Yadav said that he looked forward to a day when Mahatma Gandhi would be admired across the border, but Urdu Poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz remained an icon for him. According to him, Faiz was the finest poet of the 20th century.

Aamir Khan said that Mahatma Gandhi had always been an icon for him. “Mahatma Gandhi stood for peace and strength,” he said, wrapping up the show.