'Sonia is a magnanimous leader of the coalition'

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Keywords: UPA, NCP

Is the Nationalist Congress Party (NCP) guilty of taunting its ally, the Congress party? Or is the Press guilty of misrepresentation? That’s one of the issues discussed with the Minister of Civil Aviation and NCP’s Rajya Sabha MP, Praful Patel.

Karan Thapar: Mr Patel, increasingly there’s a widespread impression that your party, the NCP, is deliberately taunting Congress by its actions and behaviour. Why are you doing this?

Praful Patel: I don’t think that is correct, Karan. I think that impression is created by the media and maybe some people who do not wish to see Congress and NCP together.

Karan Thapar: All right. Let’s test it with the most recent development of all. Your colleague, D Tripathi, the General Secretary of the party, has said – and I quote: “The Congress party has shown neither generosity nor magnanimity towards its allies. Instead of attacking the Opposition, they are undermining their allies.” Those are strong words.

Praful Patel: Well, I guess, yes, Mr Tripathi spoke those words. But at the same time, I guess the context in which he spoke has to be seen. He was talking specifically about the issues of Meghalaya, because there we feel that Mr Sangma – who is our leader – should have been given more accommodation by the Congress party. When he resigned his MP-ship as member of the Trinamool Congress to contest again, we were part of the UPA. And if Mr Sangma’s contesting would not have been given a walkover, but support by the Congress party instead of putting up a candidate, things could have been different.

Karan Thapar: You feel let down by the way Congress treated P A Sangma?

Praful Patel: No, it’s not a question of P A Sangma; the NCP and the Congress are allies together in state governments like Maharashtra and Goa. We are allies in Delhi, we are also allies in various other states, like in Gujarat we fought the elections together. Why couldn’t we have taken it a little forward in the case of Meghalaya?

Karan Thapar: And you feel let down about that?

Praful Patel: Well, I think there are, of course, personality issues also involved and probably, I think, some people in the Congress may not have been very happy with the fact that Mr Sangma and all of us could have worked together with the Congress.

Karan Thapar: But you see, it is personality issues that underlay what Mr Tripathi said because when Mr Tripathi went on to say that the Government is democratic but the UPA is not, everyone knew he was speaking of Sonia Gandhi; after all, she is Chairperson of UPA.

Praful Patel: Well, I don’t think that is entirely correct because Mr Tripathi may have said it in a different context. Again I repeat, we have…

Karan Thapar: Whatever the context, the target was Sonia Gandhi.

Praful Patel: No, no. I would like to say, Karan, that Mr Pawar, myself, we deal with Mrs Gandhi on many issues, whether it is Government in Delhi, whether it is regarding the state government in Mumbai or Goa and I think – let us be fair – she has been very magnanimous, she has not shown any pettiness, no matter what impression may have been created by the statement.

Karan Thapar: Then why did D Tripathi attack her in this manner?

Praful Patel: I don’t think he meant Mrs Sonia Gandhi personally. He could have also meant some people who are in Delhi. Congress is a large structure in the high command, it doesn’t mean only means Mrs Sonia Gandhi.

Karan Thapar: The problem is that it’s not just Tripathi who has been saying things that look as if he’s picking on the Gandhi family. Your own leader Sharad Pawar – in March – when he publicly said that the UPA should fight the next General Election collectively with Manmohan Singh as the prime ministerial candidate, was widely thought actually to be undermining Rahul Gandhi’s hopes of becoming the leader of the next government. Or even possibly Sonia Gandhi. Even that was a deliberate, clever, double-edged weapon.

Praful Patel: No, I think you are reading too much into that. Mr Sharad Pawar’s statement of fighting as the UPA should be welcomed and should be looked in the context of a long-term relationship. And ultimately, UPA is led by Mrs Sonia Gandhi and she is the Congress party’s president. The fact that we want to have a long-term relationship with the Congress party, in fact, speaks of an understanding which is very relevant in the context of Mrs Gandhi.

Karan Thapar: The problem is, Mr Patel, you talk rhetorically of a long-term relationship with the Congress party but your action in Meghalaya and your action in Nagaland is to actually ally with the BJP – Congress’ worst enemy.

Praful Patel: No, no, I think it is not understood fully. We fought in Meghalaya and in Nagaland against the Congress party.

Karan Thapar: Absolutely. You’re not with them. So why do you want to be their ally at the National Election and fight against them at the states?

Praful Patel: That’s what I said, limited issue of Meghalaya or Nagaland should not be looked upon as a totality of relationship between Congress and the NCP.

Karan Thapar: But how can it not take Meghalaya as an example? After 60 MLAs, the BJP was only successful in getting one elected; you ended up with a cabinet of six and that one MLA becomes a cabinet-rank minister. Look at the priority and importance of giving the BJP…

Praful Patel: No, no, I think that is not understood fully. In the North-East, in the smaller states, one MLA, whether it’s of this party or that party – I think everybody has hobnobbed with anybody to form a government. Why are we only looking at Meghalaya and referring to one MLA of the BJP?

Karan Thapar: Let’s broaden the picture, and picture your behaviour overall. You and Sharad Pawar were the only UPA leaders at L K Advani’s book launch. Sharad Pawar is the only UPA leader who meets Balasaheb Thackeray. You have an alliance with the Shiv Sena in Pune, and now you have alliances with the BJP in Meghalaya and Nagaland. What sort of polygamous politics do you believe in?

Praful Patel: I think this is again…Mr Balasaheb Thackeray and Mr Pawar have known each other. After all, we are from the same state, they have worked together for the last 40 years and why do we say Balasaheb Thackeray would…

Karan Thapar: …and then Balasaheb Thackeray says Pawar would make a superb prime minister, adding fuel to Mrs Gandhi’s fire.

Praful Patel: Mr Balasaheb Thackeray voted for Mrs Pratibha Patil as the President of India and as a candidate of the Congress and the UPA-supported candidate. At that time, nobody said why Mr Balasaheb Thackeray could support Mrs Pratibha Patil!

Karan Thapar: Let me tell you what Congress says about you. Abhishek Manu Singhvi says that the NCP is running with the hares and it’s trying to hunt with the hounds; I don’t think it is incorrect – you’re trying to have it both ways.

Praful Patel: No, I do not agree. In fact, look at the consistency of the NCP. When we formed government in Maharashtra in 1999, after fighting against the Congress, we said very categorically, we will go for a secular combination in Maharashtra. So we went with the Congress. The BJP, the Shiv Sena, could have accommodated us, and I do know with first-hand knowledge, they wanted us to join Government in Delhi and to be a part of a government with them in Maharashtra, but we said no, we will not go with them. We went with Congress in Maharashra and Mr Sharad Pawar, a tall leader, remained out of government for six-and-a-half years while the NDA was in rule in Delhi.

Karan Thapar: But now you don’t lose an opportunity to join hands with the BJP, Shiv Sena…

Praful Patel: Where?

Karan Thapar: Pune, Meghalaya, Nagaland.

Praful Patel: You are again taking very small examples.

Karan Thapar: You’re bound to say that!

Praful Patel: These things happen in politics, including in my own constituency. Some people have joined hands with the BJP to form a zila parishad, which does not mean that the Congress is not secular or the BJP is not secular.

Karan Thapar: You mean taunting your allies is something that happens in politics? Keeping Mrs Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi in fragile questioning or perhaps sabotaging cleverly their hopes to lead the Government…you’re smiling! I know it is good politics but is that a guilty sign?

Praful Patel: Do you want to know one thing? When the Government was being formed, after the UPA came to power, Mrs Sonia Gandhi was the leader of Congress party for whom? NCP gave a letter of support for prime ministership. It was Mrs Sonia Gandhi’s own decision not to be the Prime Miniseter…

Karan Thapar: But that’s history.

Praful Patel: No, that’s not history, because it has to be read in the context. When you are saying that we are trying to stop her, or Rahul Gandhi from becoming the leader of the Congress party, or thereby, the Prime Minister, it is absolutely wrong because NCP supported Mrs Sonia Gandhi by name.

Karan Thapar: But now, five years later if she wishes to, Mr Pawar’s little googly supporting her squares the pitch for her and her son.

Praful Patel: If the Congress party, who will be the principal party in the UPA alliance…

Karan Thapar: You hope!

Praful Patel: No, let’s not be…I’ll be very clear with the fact that the Congress party is the biggest party in the UPA. There is no question of NCP, DMK or RJD or any other party coming close to the numbers of the Congress, and if tomorrow, the Congress party decides to nominate Mrs Gandhi or Rahul Gandhi, it’s not a question of the NCP to decide.

Karan Thapar: So, in fact, if Rahul Gandhi is in a position to nominate or be nominated as the leader of the next government, you will support that?

Praful Patel: If the UPA comes with a majority, and if the Congress party so chooses, what is the question, why is all this being debated and discussed?

Karan Thapar: There would be no dissent from the NCP?

Praful Patel: The NCP gave Mrs Sonia Gandhi a letter of support for prime ministership.

Karan Thapar: That was five years ago, what about next year?

Praful Patel: Nothing changes now.

Karan Thapar: Nothing changes?

Praful Patel: Yes.

Karan Thapar: You stick to that? Nothing changes?

Praful Patel: Yes.

Karan Thapar: Very quickly, the next test of your relationship with Congress would happen if Vilasrao Deshmukh is removed as Chief Minister. In that event, does the NCP expect to be consulted on his successor?

Praful Patel: Of course! I’ll tell you why.

Karan Thapar: You weren’t when he was appointed.

Praful Patel: Of course we have been consulted. Let us not forget that the Chief Minister of Maharashtra is also the legislative party leader of both the Congress and the NCP. It’s not a question of – we don’t come in the way or put spokes that you shouldn’t make X or Y – but the fact is that we should be consulted, our advice should be sought. The reason is very simple, and again I repeat, the person leading is leading both the parties in the legislature and the state.

Karan Thapar: What about the appointment of the new governor of Maharashtra? Do you expect to be consulted on that?

Praful Patel: Again I say, what is the coalition dharma? The coalition dharma is to take your allies along with you.

Karan Thapar: You weren’t consulted when Krishna was appointed.

Praful Patel: But anyway, at least we were told.

Karan Thapar: ’Told’ is different from being consulted

Praful Patel: Mr Krishna happened to be a good senior leader and we really don’t feel there was any leader to be upset about it.

Karan Thapar: But this time around you expect to be consulted on the governorship?

Praful Patel: Of course! As I said, as a coalition dharma, to be consulted, to be taken on board is very important and I think that is being done and this should be done a little bit more so that these kind of misunderstandings that are created in the media unfortunately should not arise.

Karan Thapar: In which case, suppose you are not consulted on either issue, what would you do?

Praful Patel: Listen, we have not done anything in the last almost four years of government in Delhi, or for the last nine years in Maharashtra, where any jeopardy is there to the alliance.

Karan Thapar: So you are saying you will grit your teeth and bear it even if…

Praful Patel: No, it’s not a question of grit our teeth and bear it. I would only say that the Congress party is the principal party in the UPA, they should try to take everybody along. To some extent, they have been doing it and if they do it more, it would be only to the benefit of the entire alliance.

Karan Thapar: And if they don’t do it more, then what?

Praful Patel: But why would we go into “then” and “why”?

Karan Thapar: Because D Tripathi raised that issue.

Praful Patel: Mr Tripathi raised that issue only in the context of Meghalaya, he has not raised that issue in terms of running…

Karan Thapar: But you have raised it in the context of Maharashtra, you have raised it in the context of coalition dharma, so I’m asking you, if the Congress does not consult more – as you say it should – then what?

Praful Patel: No, but why are we saying “then”? They have been doing it. If they had not done it, I would have certainly given you an answer.

Karan Thapar: They didn’t do it in the case of Mr Krishna. You admitted it.

Praful Patel: No, but I said he did inform us.

Karan Thapar: “Inform”, not “consult”

Praful Patel: No, I’m saying they did inform us but Mr Krishna’s name, being a good name, they was no reason to really squabble over.

Karan Thapar: Okay. So if another good name were to come out of the hat, you would accept to not be consulted?

Praful Patel: No, no, but I would not say it is a question of being consulted. The question is, in the interest of the coalition, it is imperative that both parties, whether it’s the Congress or the NCP – in the case of other states, the other parties – should be taken on board. Unless and until you have a healthy working relationship, a coalition cannot perform and do its best.

Karan Thapar: Mr Patel, let’s talk about how effectively the UPA is functioning as a coalition. I want to quote what Mr Tripathi, the General Secretary of your party said on the April 4: “The Government follows the coalition dharma, but not the UPA.” Where’s the UPA going wrong?

Praful Patel: I think, again, we are going too much into one statement of Mr Tripathi’s.

Karan Thapar: He’s your General Secretary.

Praful Patel: He is our General Secretary and I do not disown what he says.

Karan Thapar: But you sound as if you think he is too outspoken for his own good.

Praful Patel: No, no, it’s not a question of that. You see, we are in government, we realise the compulsions of coalition politics. We also realise that the Prime Minister is doing a commendable job considering the various pulls and pressures. India is not such a simple country to govern.

Karan Thapar: Quite right. What about Mrs Gandhi?

Praful Patel: It’s not just a question of only the people in government. There are so many issues which come up and which require consensus-building and that’s a difficult task to do. It’s simpler said than done.

Karan Thapar: You’re a deft politician Mr Patel. What you’re not saying is more important than what you’re saying. You’re praising the Prime Minister, you’re praising the Government, you’re not saying a word about the UPA or Mrs Gandhi. Is the UPA and Mrs Gandhi, in particular, doing a commendable job?

Praful Patel: Of course!

Karan Thapar: Then why don’t you say so?

Praful Patel: Well, I am saying this, I’m saying it on a show which is going to be seen by people.

Karan Thapar: Then what did D Tripathi mean when he said the government follows the coalition dharma but not the UPA?

Praful Patel: He is talking again in the context of what happened in Meghalaya. I’m just trying to be very candid about the thing that yes, there is an issue which was not to our satisfaction, could have been handled better, and is restricted to the state of Meghalaya.

Karan Thapar: All right, you restrict it but before I broaden it, let me just stick to Meghalaya. How badly hurt, how deeply upset was your party by Meghalaya?

Praful Patel: We fought the election separately. It’s a question of we didn’t get the majority, neither did the Congress party. It could have been much nicer had we both come together and formed the government but that did not happen. We have formed a government with the formation of various regional and smaller parties, and that’s okay. It doesn’t matter because the NCP – mind you – is not only about Meghalaya; we fight in Kerala against the Congress party in association with the Left Front. We constitute the Left Front.

Karan Thapar: It’s because of the fact that you fight several elections against the Congress party that I want to broaden this beyond Meghalaya – which is why I keep insisting it is not Meghalaya-restricted, even though you say so. Now listen to something else that Tripathi said. He said the NCP is in favour of the Third Front. He’s either contradicting Sharad Pawar or he’s indicating that as a party, you’re ready to jump from the Congress ship. Which is it?

Praful Patel: Well, I can tell you one thing certainly. We are a constituent of the UPA, we shall continue to be a constituent of the UPA, we shall fight the next General Elections as constituent of the UPA, and we shall hope to see a government of the UPA installed at the Centre.

Karan Thapar: In which case, you’re doing great. Just add one more thing. And if the Congress party is the single largest member of the UPA, as is likely, and if the Congress believed that either Rahul Gandhi or his mother Sonia Gandhi should be prime minister of that government, would you support…

Praful Patel: We will not get into the leadership issue of the Congress party. It is purely for them to decide.

Karan Thapar: But whomever they’ll choose, you’ll support?

Praful Patel: I am saying it so categorically, what more do you want me to say?

Karan Thapar: Including young Rahul Gandhi?

Praful Patel: I said it earlier, what more do you want me to say? The choice of prime ministership of the Congress party is not an issue, which we need to be consulted about.

Karan Thapar: So the stand that Sharad Pawar took in 1999, he not only reversed in 2004, when Sonia Gandhi’s own decision that you all know, now you are saying that stand against Sonia is buried forever?

Praful Patel: We fought against the Congress party in 1999 after which we formed an alliance with the Congress in Maharashtra, we have continued to fight in alliance with Congress in Goa, in Maharashtra, in various other places.

Karan Thapar: But you are prepared to accept Sonia as prime minister?

Praful Patel: …and we had, as I said earlier, given a letter by name for Mrs Sonia Gandhi to lead the UPA as prime minister. It was her call not to accept that position. Why should you imply that the NCP has a role, either way?

Karan Thapar: In which case, my last question, if you’re prepared to bury forever your opposition to Sonia Gandhi as prime minister – which is the issue on which Sharad Pawar broke from Congress in ’99 – why don’t you just go back to Congress? What’s the difference between you and them?

Praful Patel: Well, I think we have a party of some standing, we have a national party, one of the very few six or seven recognised parties of the country.

Karan Thapar: Is it obstinacy or principle?

Praful Patel: It is not obstinacy, it is principle. I think we are doing fine, and as long as we stick to certain secular credentials, as long as we think in the interest of the nation and we think we can offer a solution which is stable and sustainable, I think we will go with that combination, and at the moment there is no other option but the UPA.

Karan Thapar: Mr Patel, a pleasure talking to you on Devil’s Advocate.