We'll convince our Muslim voters of N-deal: Amar

THE LEFT(OVER): Relations with Left not damaged because of N-deal, but am sorry if Karat is hurt, says Amar Singh.

          

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Samajwadi Party’s decision to liaise with Congress, formerly a bitter foe, to push the Indo-US nuclear deal through is being seen as the biggest political turnaround of recent times. While some call it politics of opportunism, others say it’s a betrayal. But SP General Secretary Amar Singh seems unrepentant and all forgiving. He tells Karan Thapar on Devil’s Advocate that the party is confident not only of its stand but also of convincing its large Muslim electorate that the nuclear deal is good for the country.

Karan Thapar: Let’s begin with the political reaction to the manner in which the Samajwadi Party and Congress are coming together. Your former allies, the Left, feel you’ve let them down, they feel you’ve taken a complete U-turn and, in private, they say you betrayed them. How will you respond to that?

Amar Singh: I will never ever say anything critical against them. I have not yet forgotten when Soniaji and top Congress leaders wanted to dismiss the UP government, and the veto of Prakash Karat saved it. But I will also remember one more incident – the United Front Government led by I K Gujarat and the BJP government led by Kalyan Singh was dismissed by Cabinet. When the Cabinet decision was sent back for reconsideration, Congress leaders and comrades like Jyoti Basu and veterans like Sitaram Yechury said they were against the promulgation of Article 356 and will support the non-dismissal of the BJP government. Mr Advani profusely thanked Leftists for their stand.

So that explains the conduct of CPI-M in saving our government. Let me tell you that at the instance of comrade (Harkishan Singh) Surjeet, I went to Soniaji’s house. Though, I don’t want to rake up the past, was it not the responsibility of my progressive Communist friends to force Congress to take the SP in the UPA when we were left alone and isolated?

Karan Thapar: Did you feel let down by the Left when they did this?

Amar Singh: Whatever I had felt, I had said then. I don’t want to beat about the bush again and again (sic) because I have had this experience. I don’t know when next will I need them or when will they need me. So I don’t want t o say anything against them, publicly.

Karan Thapar: But this is the first time that you have commented on the fact that the Left who took you to Sonia Gandhi’s house in 2004, then did nothing to support you when Sonia Gandhi ignored you, cold-shouldered you – and as you said – she made you feel unwanted. Her party men even compared you to dogs and beggars. But the Left did nothing to support you – neither personally nor politically. This is the first time, you have commented about it.

Amar Singh: No. Do not put words in my mouth. This is not the first time. Mulayam Singh Yadav – my president and leader – had publicly commented and he asked Surjeet why he was quiet and not commenting.

Karan Thapar: What did Surjeet say?

Amar Singh: He said, ‘I am sorry, I should have commented. He said Amar Singh was not a gatecrasher and met (Sonia) due to my initiative.’

Karan Thapar: Surjeet said this in private to Mulayam Singh but did not make any comment in your defense publicly.

Amar Singh: I don’t want to say anything about him now that he is not in the political scene.

Karan Thapar: Does this absence of support for you and your party in 2004 in some way justify the fact that today, you are not with the Left even though the Left protected and defended your government two years ago? Ironically, today you are with the very party that was trying to dismiss your government.

Amar Singh: Left protected and defended any move that was for the execution of Article 356. They protected and saved Kalyan Singh’s as well as my government. Nonetheless, I am grateful to them and will remain grateful to them. I have said political decisions are not taken on (the basis of) bias, prejudices and hurt. Our decision – or the U-turn, so to say – is in the national interest and at the behest of Dr (APJ Abdul) Kalam’s advice and the responsibility of this delayed response lies on the UPA government and this dispensation because they did not consult us earlier.

Karan Thapar: How badly damaged are your relations with Prakash Karat today?

Amar Singh: I don’t think my relations with him are damaged, at least from my side.

Karan Thapar: He is hurt, he is upset.

Amar Singh: I am very sorry, he has not communicated this to me. But if he is hurt and upset, I am sorry about it from the core of my heart.

Karan Thapar: But there’s nothing you can do about it?

Amar Singh: I have also been hurt and upset so many times. There’s nothing he can do about it.

Karan Thapar: Another set of your former allies who are upset – and perhaps even angry – with you are your allies in the UNPA. Omar Abdullah has publicly said you are unraveling the UNPA, (O P) Chautala and TDP spokesperson have said you should be thrown out of the UNPA.

Amar Singh: Again, it’s not proper to say anything for any friend in public. But I will respond one by one if you give me opportunity and do not interrupt. My friend Farooq Abdullah never formally joined the UNPA, he was coming when UNPA took a decision to vote for Rasheed Masood. He openly voted for the official UPA candidate and also for Pratibha Patil. This is the response to Omar Abdullah.

For my friend and leader Chandrababu Naidu – and I will always consider him my elder brother, he has always been kind and I have no reason to believe he won’t be kind – was Convenor of the United Front. He presided over the meeting with Left parties and us in the morning, and in the evening, through newspapers we got to know he had joined NDA.

At least we had the decency of holding a meeting and communicating to each one of them that if you have to vote along with BJP and BSP, it was not possible for us. We made it candidly clear that day. It was decided by all leaders that we will await the decision of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh through some nuclear expert. In the open press conference, Chautalaji suggested Dr Kalam. We did exactly what was collectively decided. Had Dr Kalam said the deal was anti-national, we would have accepted. But he said it was a deal in national interest, so we agreed.

Karan Thapar: So you are saying that neither Omar Abdullah nor Chandrababu Naidu – and I presume the same logic of yours applies to Chautala as well – have any right to criticise you for the position that you’ve taken, none of them has any right of demanding that you should be thrown out of the UNPA. That’s what you are saying?

Amar Singh: They are all senior leaders. They are all my elders. I am willing to be the recipient of bouquets from them and I should have the capacity to accept brickbats form them too. In both cases, I am happy.

Karan Thapar: But has the UNPA fallen apart?

Amar Singh: Samajwadi Party and its commitment to secular ethos is intact.

Karan Thapar: But is the UNPA intact?

Amar Singh: I would love to keep the UNPA intact but I don’t know since it has not been communicated to us. We have come to know about it through the press. If this is the view shared by Chandrababu Naidu and Chautalaji, then of course, I accept their decision with humility and grace.

Karan Thapar: Let’s now come to Sonia Gandhi. I want to go back to 2004. You will remember that in July 2004, you gave me an exclusive interview in which you told me in detail how Sonia Gandhi had cheated you when Harkishan Singh Surjeet took you to her house for dinner. I want to remind you – you said you felt discarded, rejected and very shabbily treated. You said, ‘she did not look at me, she did not talk to me. She made me feel unwanted’. You were angry, humiliated and felt badly treated. Have you forgiven and forgotten all of that?

Amar Singh: I don’t know what is the relevance of this question in the present context. I don’t deny having said this in the past but I don’t want to live in the shadow of past all the time. Morning shows the day. So I think today is the morning for tomorrow’s day.

Karan Thapar: In other words, past is over, tomorrow is another day and you want to start afresh.

Amar Singh: I will also say guzara hua zamaana aata nahi dobara, hafiz khuda tumahara (The past doesn’t return. So goodbye to it).

Karan Thapar: People will say that the allies who supported you when you were in trouble – the Left – you’ve deserted. The party that was metaphorically rude to you – you are supporting today. Isn’t that a paradox?

Amar Singh: I don’t understand why everything is viewed materialistically and politically. I am not expecting anything from Soniaji or, for that matter, from Dr Manmohan Singh. There is no deal. We do not want any ministerial berth or favour.

Karan Thapar: I accept that.

Amar Singh: So if there’s a deal for the nation, we are supporting it. There is no question of past, prejudice or hurt. Where is the alliance? I am not seeking anything. I am not a seeker.

Karan Thapar: All of this is explained by the fact that it’s good for the country and that comes first.

Amar Singh: Yes. I am not a seeker. There is a question of being patronised but neither are they giving nor am I seeking.

Karan Thapar: Let me put this to you. Today, as you say, your first priority is to combat communal forces, to ensure that the BJP doesn’t come to power and, as you say, you will do everything in your power to prevent it. In light of that, do you regret the decision you took in 1999 – when you did not give support to Sonia Gandhi, and therefore facilitated five more years of BJP rule? Do you regret that?

Amar Singh: I am not very happy about it, and I don't have any embarrassment in saying that I regret it.

Karan Thapar: Was it a mistake?

Amar Singh: Of course it was.

Karan Thapar: Whose decision was it – your or Mulayam Singh’s?

Amar Singh: All of us. Even if it was Mulayam Singh, it was my decision for he is my leader. The decisions are collective in nature so why blame one person for it? And it was not a mistake from one side, it was a mistake from two sides. It was a mistake of Congress as well, because they were not in a mood to accept the coalition dharma at that point of time. Mrs Gandhi and government said that give support with no participation and Jayalalithaa ji, Lalu ji and all of us wanted to participate in the government. But Samajwadi Party, at that point in time along with Left, said we don’t want power, we don’t want to join the government. But it was not acceptable then.

Karan Thapar: So you are saying you made a mistake but you are also saying that Congress too made a mistake. If Congress had behaved differently, you could have given support and prevented five years of BJP rule.

Amar Singh: That’s correct, this analysis of yours.

Karan Thapar: Do you think you should apologise to the country for the fact that your decision lead to five extra years of what you consider rule by communal forces?

Amar Singh: Both Congress and us should jointly regret that era and phase of non-communication and bitterness against us that has resulted into this, because no one person can be held responsible for anything. Action and reaction are conducive in any situation.

Karan Thapar: And should Congress and Samajwadi Party apologise to the country for taking actions that resulted in five more years of BJP rule?

Amar Singh: In a way, both of us have realised that. And actions speak louder than anything, and that action is visible. Both and Congress and we have realized the growing danger of communalism.

Karan Thapar: So you just said that you apologise to the country for inflicting five extra years of BJP rule which could have been avoided.

Amar Singh: Past is left behind.

Karan Thapar: But you can apologise for the past…

Amar Singh: I represent not only myself, I represent a sect and billions of supporters. Without taking them on board, I can’t do what you want.

Karan Thapar: But you will consider the possibility.

Amar Singh: I will consider any possibility that will strengthen the secular forces.

Karan Thapar: Let’s turn to the manner in which your voting base is responding to your new relationship with the Congress. Shahid Siddique’s paper has published a survey of Indian Muslim voters, which shows that 70 per cent are against the deal. You have a huge electorate in Indian Muslims. If 70 per cent are against the deal and you’ve committed yourself to the deal, aren’t you in the danger of alienating your own voters?

Amar Singh: Who is a leader? Leader is the one who leads not the one who is led. If there’s any misgiving, why should I blame my voters? If a CPM politburo member is saying it’s anti-Muslim and is openly communalising it, if the Chief Minister of the biggest state is communalising it, they are being misled. So if Shahid Siddique’s readers are also misled, one can’t blame them. Even I was misled.

Karan Thapar: But Shahid Siddique is your fellow General Secretary…

Amar Singh: But he is also a journalist. If we were misled…We have changed since we went and got things clarified from Kalam. As leaders we need to lead and not to be led.

Karan Thapar: If leaders we need to lead, are you confident you can convince Muslims in UP – most of whom, in fact many of whom vote for you - that what you’ve done is right?

Amar Singh: Of course. We are convinced and we will work hard to make sure they are also convinced. And if they are not led in a proper direction, the responsibility lies on us and we should pay a price for that.

Karan Thapar: The price you will pay will be losing elections.

Amar Singh: The price I would have paid by not supporting this would have been that I would have lost a good cause for the nation. What is bigger – nation or election?

Karan Thapar: So the nation is more important than losing an election?

Amar Singh: Nation is more important that individual, party and politics – as Dr Kalam told us.

Karan Thapar: So what you are saying is that for the sake of doing the right thing for India, you are prepared to risk election defeat if it comes to that?

Amar Singh: Political career, alliances are guided by national causes.

Karan Thapar: Then you are also saying that there’s a real risk – I don’t know how big – that you may not succeed in convincing the Muslim voters and they may punish you by voting you and your party out.

Amar Singh: Very strong question and analysis. I have never said that. I am simply saying that vested interests and our opponents will try and make a case out of that. We will have to be prepared to face it and counter that onslaught and will hopefully do that.

Karan Thapar: Critics and some of your allies say – not in public though – that the real reason why the SP is getting closer to the Congress is not really because they want to combat communal forces or because of the nuclear deal but because you are scared of Mayawati. That you are scared of the cases she has filed against Mulayam Singh and he is scared of being arrested and going to jail.

Amar Singh: Very funny. There’s no case. One channel showed I was perturbed about Amitabh Bachchan’s cases…

Karan Thapar: Not your cases…

Amar Singh: There are no cases. I was more vocal against Congress so there are no cases filed against me by them.

Karan Thapar: But there are cases unleashed against Mulayam Singh.

Amar Singh: Absolutely not. These are pending in the Supreme Court. A review is allowed.

Karan Thapar: The Noida land allotment? The Mhow land allotment?

Amar Singh: No, no, no.

Karan Thapar: Police recruitment?

Amar Singh: No, please. These are administrative decisions. They are being questioned and are not cases. These administrative decisions will be questioned by any alternate origin. What is interview for you, Karan, is administrative decision for any politician. Communists criticised Manmohan Singh for the policy of liberalisation. That does not mean he is corrupt.

Karan Thapar: So when people think – and there may be lakhs who may be saying it – that actually it is the fear of jail that’s made Mulayam support the Congress, you say they don’t know the truth, the reality?

Amar Singh: The don’t know because Mulayam Singh has gone to jail, in solitary confinement for 19 months during Emergency for his position against the Congress and its leadership.

Karan Thapar: But he was a younger man then. That was 30 years ago.

Amar Singh: So you want to say he has changed? That can be your observation not mine. He has not changed. He is ready to go to jail at any given point of time. So no problem.

Karan Thapar: So let me put it like this – you are genuinely giving support to the Government and are not asking for protection from them?

Amar Singh: Absolutely not. What protection can the Government give? Government can’t give any protection to Lalu Prasad who is facing fodder scam charges despite being the Railway Minister.

Karan Thapar: In which case, when LK Advani goes public and says that this relationship between Congress and SP is theatre of the absurd, what do you say to him?

Amar Singh: I will simply say that the newfound bonhomie, affection and love between LK Advani and Mayawatiji - which was professed in the Kanpur rally - is a more absurd than anything that’s happened in the past. He should have consulted his own leaders like Kalyan Singh and Rajnath Singh or should have cared to see the clippings of their observations where they have candidly described the story of bitterness and betrayal of BSP and BJP.

Karan Thapar: So you are saying Advani is absurd, you are not.

Amar Singh: I am too small a fry (sic) to comment (on who is) absurd but it is for you to analyse and people who are watching it to observe.

Karan Thapar: Mr Amar Singh, a pleasure talking to you.

Amar Singh: Thanks very much, Karan.